Curse

Mintha Syl · Mar 19, 2012, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

remember people, the OP said "once completed elona"

so it wouldnt do anything bad to the lore we have in elona, or anywhere for that matter
we keep doing the same until elona has been completed, then we can walk over it, or just keep using the wurms if we wanna

So once you did the mission the lore can be wiped and forgot of without problems? It makes no sense. Let's just make Glint a monture so you can travel everywhere faster so, but just after we completed prophecies so it wouldn't have anything to do with the lore.../sarcasm
I don't wanna sound bitter but as Dewshine Wildclaw said, the lore is one of the major aspects in the game, treating it like pongo makes me shiver a bit.

Gli · Mar 19, 2012, 10:49 AM // 10:49

What is this nonsense about lore? Have you people never heard of this wonderful thing called 'progress'?

Were you out shouting: "Men can't fly to the moon, no one has ever flown to the moon!" when they launched Apollo 11?

So someone, god or mad scientist, thinks of a spell or gadget to cross the Desolation some time after Kormir ascends. How does that ruin the lore?

Maybe an asura does it after they're forced to the surface. That's not destroying lore, that's expanding it.

Lasai · Mar 19, 2012, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Lore is fun if playing the game is fun. Worms are not fun.

Worms utterly kill the replayability of those areas for me. The joy, to me, of this game is developing that synergistic group of heroes.. something a worm group with canned skills will never have.

I vanquish zones in other campaigns for fun.. or z coins, whatever. There is no bribe in this game enough for me to enter a worm, or enter a worm zone now unless forced to in order to finish NF on a character. I have VQ NF on ONE character, and that will be the last one.

Worms never change. One elite.. and then.. no matter what you do, no matter how much you have learned, progressed, no matter your experience..you are stuck in a slow, stupid, unchangeable skill set and so are your heroes.. with worse AI.

We work hard, unlock skills, choose our appearances to the point of shelling our rl cash for looks and mercs.. millions in ingame cash for looks, and these stupid canned missions rip all of it away. I want to play my characters, period. (I will add that I have NEVER done Kilroy, Hearts of the North one time.. never again, have never done an Asuran pokemon match, and generally opt out of anything that removes my char and skills from me, including the Bonus Mission pac I stupidly paid for)

I despise worms so much that I will forever be locked out of Elona master Cartographer.. because I refuse to do the ersatz pacman worm challenge.

I have finished NF on a few of my 14 characters. The rest are stalled at the sulfurous waste.. because I have to FORCE myself to continue at that point.

No aspect of a game should be so distasteful that it becomes a burden to repeat.

Choice is a good thing. We are not forced by lore to slavishly repeat every step of every campaign, we get to skip tutorials, we can skip travel by mapping after one trip, we are spared finishing each campaign on each character to unlock HM because it is by account. We are spared taming each and every charmable pet ingame per char now.

I would heartily support being spared from worms after NF completion, by any mechanic. Gas mask, foam booties, divine providence, whatever.

Andemius · Mar 19, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Can you do it wurmless:
a) with 5-8 party members? ( I mean easily, not 3x the time)
b) without death being ANY issue at all?
c) with ZERO setup cost.

Assuming your zero setup cost ignores what I've already done to make my team useable elsewhere, then yes. Big groups? Panic and splinter wep eat them for breakfast.

Quote:

The lore IS an issue, just because you don't care about the lore doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others. Some of us love the lore of the entire game, the lore is one of the reasons for a lot of people to play this game. Can't just change the lore around for little reasons. I don't mind adding to the lore, that is how the story develops afterall.

So it would seem. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the lore from tyria and cantha, but NF's bored me and is weak anyway. In any case I am not suggesting a change to the lore. My suggestion would have been an addition to the lore. i.e. no-one crossed until X happened. We have a new god, no reason she wouldn't have some tricks up her sleeves.

Quote:

So once you did the mission the lore can be wiped and forgot of without problems?

While your comment was indeed sarcasm, I have an answer. No, why is anyone talking about wiping out lore? My suggestion is addition. You can still have Palawa teaching crossing in a Wurm, so you have to do it that way, but why not later on allow this to be granted without a Wurm.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Mar 19, 2012, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

So once you did the mission the lore can be wiped and forgot of without problems? It makes no sense. Let's just make Glint a monture so you can travel everywhere faster so, but just after we completed prophecies so it wouldn't have anything to do with the lore.../sarcasm
I don't wanna sound bitter but as Dewshine Wildclaw said, the lore is one of the major aspects in the game, treating it like pongo makes me shiver a bit.

well, i never said to change the whole lore, just add a bit after it (and it wont hurt the lore a bit)
as people said, kormir has become a god, and we were the ones responsible for it, so she could help us with 1 tiny thing, which people may like alot
which is the possibility to walk over the desolation sands, or use the wurms

it also gives something new, as most groups we face now as wurms, barely are in our way when on walking parts

i also dont get why people say wurms are weak, i mean, i liked them back then cuz they were stronger than h/h, and in some cases you need em (remember that part where you have to blast an enemy on a certain spot to get through?)

and since there's no wurm spoor in the middle of the sand (or else you will die), you'd have to choose what to do before going

siege devourer is kinda fun as you dont really need it that much, not even to kill molotov rocktail, as i know people who did without siege
so you can choose

now why not choose after you completed elona

i've seen several stuff not being with the lore
like doing older campaign missions, and it may say "this has happened in the past" but its not true, as rits didnt exist in ascalon, and in the lore it was all solved
what about being able to do elona before proph storyline? ever seen a paragon fighting the lich? well yea, but its not possible lorewise, as they started to exist and being trained AFTER proph (lich's death) and factions (after shiro died)
and yet they can kill both

so lore-wise, GW isnt 100% accurate anyway, so what would be worse? paragon/derv/sin/rit killing those who already died a few years ago, or some change to the ones who completed elona, as a thanks from kormir maybe?

also note: dont change this in missions, cuz that would screw up not only the lore, but also the missions, i mean.... walking to young wurms, while you are supposed to be with a wurm

so only exploreable areas should be passable on foot after NF story completed
AND of course if someone is with you who hasnt completed it yet, you wont recieve the blessing (or anything) either, cuz that would be runnable, and people should be able to at least see the story going as it should be, BEFORE completing elona's storyline/lore

so its no changing, its adding
look at WiK and WoC, which also are added
i wouldnt like seeing this coming only after the next elona content they were talking about, as by then GW could be empty(-ish)

EDIT: oh, i was afk while typing for dinner and stuff, so didnt see above post, which also explains it

Gill Halendt · Mar 19, 2012, 06:11 PM // 18:11

/unsigned for lore reasons.

There's NO way to travel through the sulfurous wastes, per lore. Keywords being "no way". It's not just that sulfurous sands are deadly and no one bothers to solve the problem for travellers: there's a reason for the Desolation to have such characteristics and it's strongly connected to the Abaddon lore, to the point that simple "progress" makes no sense. It's an otherworldly condition of the area living creatures should have no influence on.

Some sudden hi-tech invention from nowhere doesn't sound like a proper solution to me, nor does a divine intervention by Kormir - who by the way is the Goddess of Truth, so what has truth to do with yellow sands and toxic gasses anyway?!

What's next? Suggestions for an asuran time-machine to travel back to pre-searing?

epervier · Mar 19, 2012, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

I despise worms so much that I will forever be locked out of Elona master Cartographer.. because I refuse to do the ersatz pacman worm challenge.

Good news Lasai,you can still get master cartogapher without doing the pac-man level. You just need to embrace portal jumping to unlock normally inaccessable areas. Here's a link.
http://www.guildwiki.org/Portal_jump...rtal_Jump ers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

/...a divine intervention by Kormir - who by the way is the Goddess of Truth, so what has truth to do with yellow sands and toxic gasses anyway?!

Abbadon was the keeper of secrets. He WOULD know a way for mortals to traverse the sands, but he would NEVER tell any of his worshipers this info because that info would remove some control he has in the world. Kormir on the otherhand, may tell the truth of the sands so mortals can defeat it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

/What's next? Suggestions for an asuran time-machine to travel back to pre-searing?

already done. See April fools 2011.

I Rahavan I · Mar 19, 2012, 07:06 PM // 19:06

No! I had to VQ Joko's Domian, it was a pain, and you should suffer through it to! If your having trouble use a powerstone or two if you really suck.

Dewshine Wildclaw · Mar 19, 2012, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Adding to lore as I said could work, I would just prefer to add something ala beyond as in the other campaigns to unlock it, imo that would make more sense than just making it for something most have already done... even if it is only on one character.
Since this really bothers some, I suppose the same way as most solo missions/quests truly bother me, maybe add it after only one small quest, early NF beyond or something as such.
Beyond is all about adding to the lore, connecting it with gw2 and such, this could perhaps be part of that.

Trying to compromise a bit here

I am really neither completely for or against.

Gli · Mar 19, 2012, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's NO way to travel through the sulfurous wastes, per lore. Keywords being "no way". It's not just that sulfurous sands are deadly and no one bothers to solve the problem for travellers: there's a reason for the Desolation to have such characteristics and it's strongly connected to the Abaddon lore, to the point that simple "progress" makes no sense. It's an otherworldly condition of the area living creatures should have no influence on.

Some sudden hi-tech invention from nowhere doesn't sound like a proper solution to me, nor does a divine intervention by Kormir - who by the way is the Goddess of Truth, so what has truth to do with yellow sands and toxic gasses anyway?!

What's next? Suggestions for an asuran time-machine to travel back to pre-searing?

You know what I find far more unlikely? Humans not trying to tame their neighbouring environments. It's what we do. We built submarines, we put men on the moon. People in Elona are supposed to be sheep then? Heck, even sheep are curious about the other side of the fence.

Gli · Mar 19, 2012, 08:05 PM // 20:05

The real problem with the wurms, apart from the boring fixed skillbars, is that they remove an essential element of good game play: a broad spectrum of accomplishment levels.

You can't lose while in the wurms, but you can only win awkwardly.

There's never a sense of apprehension before you start a fight, and never a sense of accomplishment after you finish a fight. It's a bit of non-gameplay. And there's far too much of it. One such area would've been plenty.

Gill Halendt · Mar 19, 2012, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by epervier

Abbadon was the keeper of secrets. He WOULD know a way for mortals to traverse the sands, but he would NEVER tell any of his worshipers this info because that info would remove some control he has in the world. Kormir on the otherhand, may tell the truth of the sands so mortals can defeat it.

Fair enough.

But then again... Why would Kormir tell about it now, when you don't need to traverse the wastes anymore?

So, if anything, this might be good for Beyond content - if the Elonian part ever happens, we're supposedly seeing more about the events leading to Palawa's domination over Elona, so a part might take place in the Desolation, in separate instances of these areas where you're given some help from Kormir in the form of a skill, or whatever.

As an endgame addition for NF, tough? No, thanks, see above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You know what I find far more unlikely? Humans not trying to tame their neighbouring environments. It's what we do. We built submarines, we put men on the moon. People in Elona are supposed to be sheep then? Heck, even sheep are curious about the other side of the fence.

Elonians tried. And died trying.

Andemius · Mar 19, 2012, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

What's next? Suggestions for an asuran time-machine to travel back to pre-searing?

Well done on making a suggestion which is stretching my thought and applying it to a situation in which it would not work.

Quote:

No! I had to VQ Joko's Domian, it was a pain, and you should suffer through it to! If your having trouble use a powerstone or two if you really suck.

Haha, I've already VQed all the desolation, it is indeed a pain, but I have done it, I'm not whining because I can't manage it.

StormDragonZ · Mar 19, 2012, 08:48 PM // 20:48

I really don't understand why some of you dislike the Junundu. I've never had problems in the Desolation and I have vanquished Nightfall on two different characters.

From my previous statement, ask yourself which is harder: Getting infusion and surviving the last four/five missions in Prophecies, or using a wurm to travel across less than three areas to reach Ruins of Morah.

This mask would benefit runners more than anyone else.

It just feels like this is another excuse to add something to the game because a bunch of people can't accept using something different than their normal skills.

... and yes, seriously.

Andemius · Mar 19, 2012, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

From my previous statement, ask yourself which is harder: Getting infusion and surviving the last four/five missions in Prophecies, or using a wurm to travel across less than three areas to reach Ruins of Morah.

This mask would benefit runners more than anyone else.

It just feels like this is another excuse to add something to the game because a bunch of people can't accept using something different than their normal skills.

... and yes, seriously.

Well, personally I had no problems with getting infusion or beating the last few missions back when there was only prophecies, so no heroes. If anything it is even easier to get infusion and beat those missions now. It's not a case of difficulty, it's a question of why not.

As has been said previously, people have suggested that this effect be disabled if anyone in the party does not meet the requirements. This would combat runners exploiting it.

It's not an issue with people being unable to accept not using their own builds, it's an issue with having the choice to do so, under certain conditions, as I have said. If you want to go ahead and keep using the wurms, fine, but there's no reason to badmouth people who don't.

Gli · Mar 19, 2012, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Elonians tried. And died trying.

So? That doesn't stop people. We try harder, smarter. In your world, we'd still be chucking stoneheaded spears at woolly mammoths.

In any case, lore should never be an excuse for bad gaming. GW lore has never been sacred anyway. Remember when we entered the Mists to battle our way to the Hall of Heroes from the Tomb of Primeval Kings, on the continent of Tyria? Lore didn't stop ANet creating an off-continent PvP nexus when they introduced more continents. They expanded the lore.

And personally, introducing an island chain where people expressly go to beat the living snot out of each other seems a hell of a lot sillier than having someone invent some kind of breathing apparatus.

bleh · Mar 19, 2012, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

Assuming your zero setup cost ignores what I've already done to make my team useable elsewhere, then yes. Big groups? Panic and splinter wep eat them for breakfast.

So you actually went and did it? don't think so >_>.
get up to "Alem" get outa wurm n try clear the rest including monoliths? HM

The point is: If iv'e "completed" NF why would i want to walk sulfur with a mask?
is it faster- no
is it easier- no
vanquish? i thought i'd finished NF? plus its only 5 areas?
I'm bored of wurm gimmick?... bad reason, nuff said.
lack of skill choice? lets bring ELITES to pre searing then? oh once u have LDOA >_>

That AND it flys in the face of the Lore... if you dislike the lore so much.... why make it worse..?

The only reason i can see you want this is ...?
you don't like wurm skills? or you want to /emote in the sulfur?

Andemius · Mar 19, 2012, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

You also said:

What you suggested is an excuse. Plain and simple.

/thread

If you had read the thread, you would know that i have already vqed the desolation areas. Hence me not going "QQ it's too hard". Please offer constructive comments rather than posting whatever you fancy without reading.

Quote:

So you actually went and did it? don't think so >_>.
get up to "Alem" get outa wurm n try clear the rest including monoliths? HM

The point is: If iv'e "completed" NF why would i want to walk sulfur with a mask?
is it faster- no
is it easier- no
vanquish? i thought i'd finished NF? plus its only 5 areas?
I'm bored of wurm gimmick?... bad reason, nuff said.
lack of skill choice? lets bring ELITES to pre searing then? oh once u have LDOA >_>

That AND it flys in the face of the Lore... if you dislike the lore so much.... why make it worse..?

The only reason i can see you want this is ...?
you don't like wurm skills? or you want to /emote in the sulfur?

Sure I did, I need LB points, so why wouldn't I try it. Mesmers cut through his group like butter.

I would argue it is easier, perhaps not faster for running, as wurms has that 66% IMS, but for fighting I'd have to say I think h/h would be faster.

Pre-searing is a different area completely to the rest of GW. Any game-breaking changes there are pointless. While your comment was, I assume sarcasm, applying a warped version of my suggestion to Pre is not in any way a comparison of what I am saying.

I don't feel it would make the lore any worse. There's plenty of examples of bad lore around, this is no worse.

Correct, I do not like the Wurm skills, I dislike being given a set bar which heroes do not use well, and being forced into a low AL wurm.

I am not asking that the wurms be removed, by all means, keep them for use in quests/missions, and for people who want to use them. Just give an alternative for those who don't.

ogre_jd · Mar 19, 2012, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

The lore IS an issue, just because you don't care about the lore doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others. Some of us love the lore of the entire game, the lore is one of the reasons for a lot of people to play this game. Can't just change the lore around for little reasons. I don't mind adding to the lore, that is how the story develops afterall.
Make it fit with the lore we got, add it in some way that makes sense

Turai Ossa's migration north through the Desolation into the Crystal Desert happened without the aid of wurms. Kormir, after becoming a god, tells the player how Ossa did it - or begins the cleanup of the mess caused by Abaddon's fall by clearing the Sulfurous Haze. Or records somewhere in Vabbi or Kourna tell you how Ossa planned to cross. Or Palawa Joko could grant you magical protection (the limits of his power was never defined) to allow you to cross as payment for freeing him. In any case, the lore isn't a problem. The problem is being forced to use the wurms Just Because, it seems, the devs wanted to show off skillbar replacement.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

From my previous statement, ask yourself which is harder: Getting infusion and surviving the last four/five missions in Prophecies, or using a wurm to travel across less than three areas to reach Ruins of Morah.

The latter, of course, unless you demand that the former be done under 2005 conditions.

Gill Halendt · Mar 20, 2012, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

In any case, lore should never be an excuse for bad gaming. GW lore has never been sacred anyway. Remember when we entered the Mists to battle our way to the Hall of Heroes from the Tomb of Primeval Kings, on the continent of Tyria? Lore didn't stop ANet creating an off-continent PvP nexus when they introduced more continents. They expanded the lore.

They were forced to and expanded the lore in a way that makes sense. Which...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

And personally, introducing an island chain where people expressly go to beat the living snot out of each other seems a hell of a lot sillier than having someone invent some kind of breathing apparatus.

... is not the case with a human-invented breathing apparatus to overcome an otherwordly condition in an area disliked by some.